Author Topic: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)  (Read 47161 times)

Offline paleophil

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2014, 06:54:51 PM »
If you don't like the Hadza, what about Neanderthals and Australian Aborigines, are they satisfactory models, or do you have any others that meet your requirements?

The foods in the image from science research were wild-gathered, not agrarian.

The idea that all legumes are ruled out is a Paleomyth.

Even most Paleo diet advocates do not claim that 0% of protein came from plants during the Paleolithic.

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2014, 10:22:30 PM »
I suggest going through the "Research" forum and finding and reading the paper that did the bone isotope study that showed essentially all neanderthal protein intake coming from animal sources.


Offline paleophil

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2014, 05:17:33 PM »
Do you mean the isotope research of Richards and Trinkaus (http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.full )? I read their study report years ago and was misled by it. Did you read the article that cavegirljoy linked to in this thread in September, where you will find research showing that Neanderthals of Shanidar Cave, Iraq, and Spy Cave, Belgium likely ate wild varieties of legumes and grass seeds (Triticeae), and other research that has debunked the Neanderthal isotope research?

Evidence also suggests that Neanderthals of El Sidrón Cave in northern Spain consumed roasted starchy plants and herbs:

Neanderthals ate their greens
Tooth analysis shows that European hominins roasted vegetables and may have used medicinal plants.
Matt Kaplan
18 July 2012
http://www.nature.com/news/neanderthals-ate-their-greens-1.11030

...and that Neanderthals of Lev, Kislev, and Bar-Yosef, Israel ate grains, fruits and legumes:

What were Neanderthals eating?
By: Jordyn Fugere
https://sites.google.com/a/umn.edu/neanderthals/what-did-neanderthals-eat

"Research by Lev, Kislev, and Bar-Yosef[5] (further referred to as Lev et al.) examined Mousterian era carbonized plant remains in the Kebara Cave on Mt. Carmel in Israel. Lev et al. recovered a total of 4205 charred seeds and fruits around nearby hearths within the cave through flotation of materials in the lab. Of these 4205 seeds and fruit they identified 3956 of them, with a large majority (3313) of the specimens residing within the legume family. Ten different grains of Graimineae or “true grasses” were found at the site, presenting the possibility of the exploitation of cereal grains such as wheat, rice, millet, or barley in the Neanderthal diet. Because of the high legume content, there is also evidence for the possibility of a large part of the vegetarian Neanderthal diet consisting of wild plants and seeds that contained some poisonous substances."

[5] Lev, Efraim, Kislev, Mordechai, Bar-Yosef, Ofer. “Mousterian vegetal food in Kebara Cave, Mt. Carmel.” Journal of Archaeological Science. 32. (2005) 475-484.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222658340_Mousterian_vegetal_food_in_Kebara_Cave_Mt._Carmel/links/0deec5294bc55c0c08000000

And Neanderthal plant consumption was further confirmed by this recent research:

The Neanderthal Meal: A New Perspective Using Faecal Biomarkers
Ainara Sistiaga mail, Carolina Mallol, Bertila Galván, Roger Everett Summons
Published: June 25, 2014
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0101045

"Neanderthal dietary reconstructions have, to date, been based on indirect evidence and may underestimate the significance of plants as a food source. ... Neanderthal dietary reconstructions have, to date, been based on indirect evidence and may underestimate the significance of plants as a food source. ... Analysis of five sediment samples from different occupation floors suggests that Neanderthals predominantly consumed meat, as indicated by high coprostanol proportions, but also had significant plant intake, as shown by the presence of 5ß-stigmastanol."

The Neanderthal diet was meat heavy, but accumulating evidence suggests that Neanderthals got more than 0% protein and starch from plants.

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2014, 04:41:58 AM »
The only excerpt of those you quote that mentions legumes talks only about the "possibility" of consumption, which is a far cry from confirmation.  The evidence analyzed by that paper could just as well be explained by using grasses in weaving, with a few wild legumes mixed in.  In addition, if I recall correctly, that data is from well after the broad spectrum revolution, when the large herbivores we hunted during most of the paleolithic were going extinct, and is too recent to provide time for substantial evolutionary adaptation.  Many of the results from that area are recent enough to be from the beginning of the development of agriculture.

Note that carbohydrate content of the diet is very different from protein content of the diet.  While the bone isotope data rule out significant consumption of high protein plant based foods like legumes, it says little about low protein plant based foods like fruit and some root vegetables.

Guyenet's blog post linked to by cavegirljoy is full of Guyenet's typical half truths and misrepresentations.  The neanderthal source he quotes is about starchy plant foods which the source mentions is consistent with the bone isotope data; somehow Guyenet leaps from that to proteinaceous plant foods that are inconsistent with the bone isotope data.  It seems that Guyenet is unclear on the distinction between starch and protein.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:45:20 AM by Warren Dew »

Offline paleophil

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2014, 06:48:26 AM »
So you at least admit the "possibility" of >0% plant protein consumption and legume consumption, by the Neanderthals, yes? If so, then it's possible that there may be a place for protein-containing plant foods and foods from legumes plants in Paleo diets, for those who tolerate them, yes? Perhaps we just disagree on what the upper level of tolerance would be. I'm not trying to claim that anything is 100% proven.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 06:57:55 AM by paleophil »


Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2014, 06:57:28 AM »
In the sense of purposeful exploitation of leguminous seeds that would have implications for the paleo diet, no.

In the sense that a bit of clover might have ended up stuck to a piece of meat they were eating, yes.  You don't have to pick every bit of clover or alfalfa out of your salad if you don't want to.  However, you seem to be ignoring my other point about the levantine finds being at the end of the paleolithic, and possibly the beginning of the transition to agriculture.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 06:59:52 AM by Warren Dew »

Offline paleophil

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2014, 07:03:44 AM »
It would be an interesting hypothesis that Neanderthals were engaging in agriculture. I haven't seen that proposed before. Are you arguing that since the levantine Neanderthal finds were near the transition to agriculture, that they must have been engaging in it, and not just gathering wild plants?

I'm not ignoring anything, the consumption of foods from legume plants by humans and other primates goes back millions of years. If you limit your claim to just legume seeds (aka "beans"), then you have more of a case for avoidance (though still not a solid one), but then it would be clearer to say beans and peanuts than legumes.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 07:09:06 AM by paleophil »

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2014, 07:27:10 AM »
The argument is not different between leguminous seeds and the rest of the leguminous plants.  Accidental ingestion of bits of alfalfa and clover can include seeds.

Using that as an argument for including legumes in the paleo diet is like using accidental ingestion of bits of grass as an argument for including grains in the paleo diet.  Both arguments are bogus.

Offline paleophil

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2014, 08:06:42 AM »
So then you are not limiting your 100% avoidance advice to just legume seeds, yes? Are you claiming that legume fruits and tubers are essentially no different than legume seeds, since seeds might be accidentally consumed with them and that no part of any legume plant was consumed before agriculture?

I don't see an answer to my earlier question. Are you arguing that since the levantine Neanderthal finds were near the transition to agriculture, that they must have been engaging in it, and not just gathering wild plants?

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2014, 04:19:35 PM »
I've already pointed out that accidental ingestion of legumes might have happened.  In general, accidental ingestion of small bits of nonpaleo foods is not anything to worry about.  However, Guyenet is advocating more than accidental ingestion.

There is no evidence that the levantine neanderthal finds actually involved ingestion of any plant foods, as I pointed out before.  However, the finds date from about 30,000 years ago, and there is evidence that agriculture traces its roots to gathering of plants at about that date.  If the neanderthals in question were actually gathering plants to eat, which I highly doubt, then there's no reason to believe that the gathering was distinct from the beginnings of agriculture.

Now, a question for you.  Given that the levantine neanderthal finds involve a lot more grassy cereal grains than legumes, do you believe that grains should be added to the paleo diet as well as legumes?  The evidence is weaker for the legumes than for the grains, after all.

Offline paleophil

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2014, 05:05:03 PM »
I've already pointed out that accidental ingestion of legumes might have happened.
I'm not talking about "accidental" ingestion. Let's consider the 0% ingestion you advocated to mean 0% intentional ingestion. The occasional accidental scrap of this or that is negligible and unimportant, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still interested in answers to the actual questions I asked, rather than to unrelated stuff I haven't asked. Are you claiming that legume fruits and tubers are essentially no different than legume seeds and that ALL parts of legume plants should be completely avoided as totally unPaleo or not?

Quote
If the neanderthals in question were actually gathering plants to eat, which I highly doubt, then there's no reason to believe that the gathering was distinct from the beginnings of agriculture.
Regardless of whether you think it makes a difference or not, please humor me with an answer to my question--which do you think it was, Neanderthal Levantine agriculture of domesticated plants or gathering of wild plants?

Quote
Now, a question for you.  Given that the levantine neanderthal finds involve a lot more grassy cereal grains than legumes, do you believe that grains should be added to the paleo diet as well as legumes?  The evidence is weaker for the legumes than for the grains, after all.
I'll gladly answer your question after you answer mine. Give and take--it's only fair. It will also help to make my answer more understandable.

Offline Machine

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2015, 04:17:04 AM »
I followed the "no" logic from top to bottom and it resulted in being paleo. I guess I'm too serious but must admit it must of taken some time and thought to construct the flowchart. Nice piece of work. I try to keep it simple for the most part and if you have been in the diet or have had an interest you should have a pretty good idea of what to eat. I think visuals help and here is an infographic that displays paleo. http://www.mypaleodiet.org/paleo-diet-infographic/

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2015, 08:34:26 AM »
Quote
If the neanderthals in question were actually gathering plants to eat, which I highly doubt, then there's no reason to believe that the gathering was distinct from the beginnings of agriculture.
Regardless of whether you think it makes a difference or not, please humor me with an answer to my question--which do you think it was, Neanderthal Levantine agriculture of domesticated plants or gathering of wild plants?
It seems to me that the quoted portion of my post answers your question.  If not, you'll have to clarify.

Quote
Quote
Now, a question for you.  Given that the levantine neanderthal finds involve a lot more grassy cereal grains than legumes, do you believe that grains should be added to the paleo diet as well as legumes?  The evidence is weaker for the legumes than for the grains, after all.
I'll gladly answer your question after you answer mine. Give and take--it's only fair. It will also help to make my answer more understandable.
I answered the question as best I could.  You are just being evasive.

Offline afatfreeme

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2015, 12:57:32 AM »
Hi, I am new to the paleo scene,
I have been looking for paleo websites with recipes but I am finding you have to buy a lot of the recipes.
I have been using paleosecrets.com and paleodietrecipesinfo.com and taste.com they have been really good and are free but I am looking for  more!
What are some other good websites with free recipes that are raw paleo and are free?

Thanks!

Offline iron sunshine

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Re: Is it Paleo? (flowchart)
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2015, 07:37:15 AM »
I followed the "no" logic from top to bottom and it resulted in being paleo. I guess I'm too serious but must admit it must of taken some time and thought to construct the flowchart. Nice piece of work. I try to keep it simple for the most part and if you have been in the diet or have had an interest you should have a pretty good idea of what to eat. I think visuals help and here is an infographic that displays paleo. http://www.mypaleodiet.org/paleo-diet-infographic/
I really like this simple chart. Very helpful  :)