Author Topic: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...  (Read 11756 times)

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2010, 09:06:56 PM »
I went from 170ish to 205 (lean) on fruit and meat...
But it takes time, dedication and patience for that to happen. Some people need to see the scale move. In a hurry.
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Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2010, 09:07:32 PM »
I went from 170ish to 205 (lean) on fruit and meat...

You were probably gaining actual muscle.  Destor's quick 7 lb gain was probably about 2 lb of glycogen along with the associated bound water, as expected when carb loading.

Destor

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2010, 09:44:47 PM »
If that is the case then my current diet obviously wasn't supplying the glycogen replenishing that my level of activity demanded.  I didn't waiver from 140lbs more than 2lbs for 3 months straight, despite lifting consistently, timing my fruit eating with my workouts, and stuffing myself constantly.

3 weeks with starchy tubers added onto an otherwise completely paleo diet, and I'm up 8.8lbs right now, 6-7lbs consistenly.

Clearly a good chunk of it is glycogen weight, it's not possible to put real muscle on that fast, but I'm surely putting muscle on as well.  Finally putting muscle on an making progress after 3 months of stagnation.

All the water weight just adds more resistance for chin ups and other body weight exercises, just means more growth :D
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 09:53:25 PM by Destor »

Destor

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2010, 10:09:07 PM »
Oh I also upped my meat intake big time, and cut back on walnuts.

And don't try to slam my dedication, Wlfdg.  My diet and exercise has been controlled for almost 3 years straight now.  I work my ass off every day to eat properly and work out.

I'm after two things, results and performance.  I did the fruit bulking thing a try for 3 solid months, it did little for me.  I'll give this a try for another 2 months and we'll see which has resulted in more real muscle gain.

I have never weighed over 145 though, not even when I was on a diet full
of pastas, grains, and far more carbs than I'm eating now.  I'm willing to bet that I have already put on more real muscle than I did in 3 months of fruit bulking.

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2010, 07:00:06 AM »
If that is the case then my current diet obviously wasn't supplying the glycogen replenishing that my level of activity demanded.
If it wasn't you wouldn't have energy to train.

And don't try to slam my dedication, Wlfdg.  My diet and exercise has been controlled for almost 3 years straight now.  I work my ass off every day to eat properly and work out.
I'm not slamming your dedication. Some people need to see the scale move. Some could care less.
I'm satisfied with an increase in training density. Then I know it's all working.
Walking isn't exercise, it's locomotion!
Living for longevity is like fighting for peace.
"Food is fuel! It's not a f***ing theater ticket!" -author unknown
"There is no such thing as “firming and toning.” There is only stronger and weaker" - Mark Rippetoe

Offline gb

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2010, 07:09:48 AM »
Well sheesh, I certainly don't consume that much protein in a day.... that looks like a hard one for me. I'll have to start tracking food again and figure out how to cram that much protein in...
I generally eat about 1.5lbs. of meat at a sitting. I eat all my protein first then I eat my veggies. I don't move until my plate is clear.

Geez...1.5lbs of meat at a sitting....how did your momma ever afford to feed you?!?!?!?  ;) Remind me again, does your GF do Paleo?

Offline samjohn

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2010, 07:31:59 AM »
I'd really like to be able to keep getting stronger without increasing in size from this point on.
The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2010, 07:36:24 AM »
Remind me again, does your GF do Paleo?
At home I do all the cooking. So at home she eats Paleo.
I'd really like to be able to keep getting stronger without increasing in size from this point on.
Non-eccentric training.  ;)
Walking isn't exercise, it's locomotion!
Living for longevity is like fighting for peace.
"Food is fuel! It's not a f***ing theater ticket!" -author unknown
"There is no such thing as “firming and toning.” There is only stronger and weaker" - Mark Rippetoe

Destor

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2010, 07:47:48 AM »
You're over 200lbs Wlfdg, you started out at over 200lbs.  It's easy to talk about not needing to see the scale move when you're already massive, same with you samjohn, you almost started out at my goal.

I started out at 115, and I'm still skinny.  If I had stuck with the fruit bulking, I probably would have been lucky to hit my goal of 170-180 by the time I was 60 years old.

Seriously, 3 months of strict diet and doing everything right, and I saw zero weight gain, some strength progress but nothing compared to what I should have seen with 3 months of hard work.

1lb of real muscle gain per week is very possible, it shouldn't take a year to gain a lb.

Maybe fruit bulking works for other people with slower metabolisms, but straight from the Paleo gurus mouth: starchy tubers like potatoes and yams are essential for replenishing glycogen stores in athletes.

Fruits come with far too much fibre and slow digesting fructose.  This is straight from Cordains The Paleo Diet for Athletes and that is consistent with my experience.  I spent so much money on berries, bananas and such, ate them immediately after workouts with good protein, and still saw zero real progress. 

Offline samjohn

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2010, 08:08:08 AM »
I totally get where you're coming from Destor, at 170 I honestly felt frail. I gained the weight over almost year though, it wasn't quick.

The weightlifting/bodybuilding world probably disagrees with me, but I think the most important factor is lifting big weights fast, and lifting bigger weights as soon as you are able.

I kept it all pretty simple, the whole 5x5 thing, but as soon as the sets/reps felt even slightly easier to do, I added more weight. Every single workout was uncomfortable.
The answer to your question is 'eat more fat'.

Stop counting calories. If you are eating Paleo, there is usually no need.

If you are having weight loss issues, it'd be a good idea to start posting a detailed food journal, then everyone can help.

'Anecdotal Evidence' is an oxymoron.

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2010, 09:06:17 AM »
You're over 200lbs Wlfdg, you started out at over 200lbs.  It's easy to talk about not needing to see the scale move when you're already massive,
I understand that. There was a time in my life when I was "in your shoes" relatively speaking. So I get it. I'm not saying it's easy.
JMO-I will say that on the road to physique happiness, the scale is usually a source of disappointment and frustration. I've seen a lot of "skinny" people end up fat because of it.
Walking isn't exercise, it's locomotion!
Living for longevity is like fighting for peace.
"Food is fuel! It's not a f***ing theater ticket!" -author unknown
"There is no such thing as “firming and toning.” There is only stronger and weaker" - Mark Rippetoe

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2010, 10:06:33 AM »
And don't try to slam my dedication, Wlfdg.  My diet and exercise has been controlled for almost 3 years straight now.  I work my ass off every day to eat properly and work out.

I think the hard work over the past three months actually has paid off.  You said your weight varied by about 2 lb while on strict paleo.  Now, when you go off paleo and regain the glycogen and water weight that everyone loses when they start paleo, you're 2 lb heavier.  That means you gained 2 lb of muscle over the past three months on paleo, which is a respectable amount of muscle.  That's also why you gained a noticeable amount of strength over that time.

1lb of real muscle gain per week is very possible, it shouldn't take a year to gain a lb.

While a pound of weight per week is realistic, only a fraction of that is going to be muscle.  That's true of the 30 pounds you gained on your way from 115 to 145, too.

I've been there.  I was 120 lb throughout college, which was about as skinny as you were given I'm a couple inches taller.  The thing is, you can't be that thin and have a normal body fat percentage.  When I tried to take a skin fold at my waist, I got about as much as most people can get off the back of their hand.  By the Navy method, I was between -1% and 1% body fat.  I bet you were less than 5% at the most, which is very low.

Now, I'm at a normal body fat percentage.  Your pictures say you are too, even after dropping back down to 140.  That means a significant amount of your weight gain was fat - maybe healthy fat, since you're at what's considered a healthier body fat percentage now, but still fat - and some was glycogen and water weight, since you were making an effort to eat more.  At most, probably 10 pounds of that 30 pounds was actually lean muscle - which is still a respectable amount of muscle gain for one year.

The question is, what do you really want?  If you want muscle, that's going to be measured more in strength gains than weight.  If you just want weight, then quitting paleo and adding starchy carbs will certainly do it - but it will be more fat and water than muscle.

If you want respect - people asking you if you lift weights, for example, as sometimes happens with me - strength will help, but the biggest changes will come with things like improving your posture, and being able to look confident while still looking relaxed.

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2010, 11:52:33 AM »
Well when I was 115lbs, I was skinny-fat.  I looked skinny (tiny wrists, arms etc) but my stomach held a lot of fat, my abs weren't even visible back then despite weighing so little.

Now I weigh 35lbs more and I look more cut now than I did at 115, and in my one progress picture there I don't know if I could have gotten much leaner.

I still eat paleo.  My meals are meat, veggies, and fruit.  I added milk (which some people consider paleo anyways, I have no problem digesting it), and good tubers like sweet potatoes.

It's still paleo, I don't eat grains like breads pastas and rice, and I don't overload on carbs except after workouts, and my meals are inspired by Cordains recommendations.

Btw when I say my weight varied 2lbs I mean that after a full meal or loading up on carbs, my weight would go up to 142, and the next day I would be down at 140 again.  I gained 0 real weight in those 3 months, my lifts went up slightly but nothing susbstantial.

I'm aware that without really knowing or training with me, you can question all types of things that may have affected my progress.  Maybe I wasn't lifting explosively enough?  Maybe I wasn't slow enough on the negative?  Maybe I was doing nothing but barbell curls?  Maybe I was doing high reps and too much cardio?

The fact is that I put on 30lbs of weight already from my starting point, and all of my lifts went up exponentially as well.  I'm 10 times the athlete I was before, and I now know my body very well.  There is always room for improvement but I know what I'm doing.  I know the basics of lifting and I know a lot about diet and nutrition.

Fruit bulking just wasn't working for one reason or another, and I put a LOT of effort and money into it.  There is no reason that I would have gained 0 weight in those 3 months aside from something lacking nutritionally.

Like any logical person would do, I'm trying something else.  If it doesn't work and I make no progress over 3 months, or less progress, then I'll switch back.

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2010, 12:37:21 PM »
Well when I was 115lbs, I was skinny-fat.  I looked skinny (tiny wrists, arms etc) but my stomach held a lot of fat, my abs weren't even visible back then despite weighing so little.

Mine weren't either when I was 120 lb.  If you don't have muscle, you're not going to have muscle definition, no matter how little fat you have.

Quote
I still eat paleo.  My meals are meat, veggies, and fruit.  I added milk (which some people consider paleo anyways, I have no problem digesting it), and good tubers like sweet potatoes.

Sorry, but no one who knows anything about the paleolithic considers milk paleo; people didn't drink bovine milk until after they domesticated the bovids, and that didn't happen until the end of the paleolithic.  The same goes for the domestication of sweet potatoes.

Quote
Fruit bulking just wasn't working for one reason or another, and I put a LOT of effort and money into it.  There is no reason that I would have gained 0 weight in those 3 months aside from something lacking nutritionally.

Like any logical person would do, I'm trying something else.  If it doesn't work and I make no progress over 3 months, or less progress, then I'll switch back.

Obviously what you want involves getting the scale to move, and not just gaining strength.  And you're right, paleo may not work for your goals.  Maybe you need milk, maybe you need sweet potatoes, maybe you need grains.  There's nothing wrong with a nonpaleo diet if it paleo doesn't work for you.

Destor

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2010, 01:58:51 PM »
You always have abdominal muscles, regardless of how little muscle you have.  My body fat % was high when I was 115lbs, that is why they weren't showing and as soon as I cut refined carbs out of my diet, they popped up.

There are plenty of guys that are downrght skinny and have visible abs, I wasn't one of them, I was skinny-fat.

And I clearly have the genetics to drink milk without digestive issues, so it's fine by me right now.

Like I said, give it another 2 months and we'll see which method has resulted in more strength and size gains.  If you guys are so convinced that I'm only going to put on glycogen weight and body fat, and no real muscle, then that will be obvious soon enough.

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Re: Mass-Building Paleo Diet?...
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2010, 01:58:51 PM »