Author Topic: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic  (Read 68000 times)

Oodar

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Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« on: March 26, 2011, 11:20:52 AM »
This is written as an opinionated, observational article. It doesn't tie into the paleo diet, but in the spirit of paleo living, I think it's somewhat germane.

What I've concluded, and none of what I'm about to write comes from research, no one ever even talks about this, is that involuntary celibacy is a major occurence in the Western world amond young men (35 under mostly). This does not affect women, homosexual men, or people living in the Eastern hemisphere.

What most people consider the "norm" today is what they get from the media. Mostly entertainment, false or misleading articles with money as the motivator, not true factual research.

Needless to say there are a lot of young men who are involuntarily celibate for a wide range of reasons that I will not get into. The fact is they are not getting what is considered a base need on Maslow's triangle (food, air, sex). This is a new phenomenon that has never occured throughout the history of any living species on Earth.

There is little recourse for a man truly suffering from this condition, depending on the reason of course. Some outlets could be soliciting a prostitute, lowering standards (generally an exhausted option to begin with).

Hardly anyone would connect sexual frustration to rising crime rates, deteriorating mental health, lower self esteem, etc, but this hasn't even been studied. Studies are mostly bias anyways.

The question is, will this occurence that is taking place, primarily in the US, have negative impacts on society as a whole? Will anyone connect the dots, or are we not going to give credit to my theory that this could have major negative implications both in the present and future?

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2011, 12:06:13 PM »
I wouldn't agree that it hasn't ever happened before.  Young males in lots of species are shut out of mating.  Wolves typically don't get to be the alpha and breed until all the older wolves have died off.  Male lions wander around for years until they finally take over a pride - or at least they did until trophy hunting made the males scarce.


Oodar

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2011, 12:22:44 PM »
It hasn't happened with humans on such an epic scale, ever.

The thing with sexual selection in humans is that it limited men to certain sexual partners or less desirable partners. What we have today is involuntary celibacy due to a myriad of factors. There are too many to get into, but it has resulted in a highly unnatural occurence that will likely have negative impacts.

We could debate the reasons why this is happening, but the fact is it's happening. People are given a delusional perspective on adult sex life from the media. Hardly anyone is open about celibacy if they suffer from it, so if you agree it's occuring (and that it hasn't in the past), we're on the same page.


Offline Il Capo

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2011, 12:52:33 PM »
I'm with Warren on this one. The paleo norm was for less than half the men to reproduce. Having 80 - 90% of men reproduce is a very recent phenomenon (even closer in time than agriculture). Lifetime Monogamy is as artificial as bread or corn syrup.

Now, how will the mixture of a lot of men not reproducing within the setting of our massive civilizations work remains to be seen. We can guess, opine and argue about it.

Offline Paleo Curmudgeon

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2011, 01:29:28 PM »
Are we talking about males who frequent Star Trek conventions?

« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 01:31:17 PM by Paleo Dude »


Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 01:47:49 PM »
I wouldn't go so far as to say what the paleo "norm" was.  Some think their organization was wolf like, others think tribes were bigger and included multiple breeding pairs.  Humans may have been more flexible than other species as well.  However, I can't see older males in their prime voluntarily giving up breeding rights to younger males who hadn't proved themselves.  I don't think there would have been a lot of "undesirable" females; they had a good diet and lifestyle, so most would have been healthy and attractive.

My modern advice is to be patient and build up your finances.  I didn't have a girlfriend until my late 20s, and didn't get married until 40, but I did end up happily married to a beautiful younger woman with wonderful kids.  Once you are in your 30s, you'll find there are quite a few women approaching 30 who put off the whole getting married and having children thing until it was almost too late, and are now more than happy to talk to any man who seems responsible - which is to say, has a job and owns a nice car, and maybe a house.

I bet OKCupid could find matches for you.

Offline C C G

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2011, 02:15:06 PM »
This does not affect people living in the Eastern hemisphere.



no?  What about all the millions of 'extra' men in China, for which there are no female partners because of selective abortions etc.?

I agree with Warren, it's not a new thing.  The best men (with the most 'erotic capital') get more than their 'fair share' of women; this leaves the guys on the lower end of the bell curve with nothing.  Nothing new there whatsoever.

Also, these days, women would rather be single than date a guy they consider sub standard.  A lot of women have 'moved on' (in terms of modernity) and the men just haven't caught up.  Look at Italy- the classic example.  I live with two 28 year old guys.  They are incapable of cooking or cleaning and have no female friends.  They have no real interest in relating to women either - for them women are people you have sex with, not people you're friends with.

I don't think there would have been a lot of "undesirable" females; they had a good diet and lifestyle,

I hate to say it but I honestly think that at the moment there are a lot more undateable men than there are undateable women!

I'm 24 years old, very well educated, independent, solvent, and reasonably attractive (judge for yourself!).  I've been single for 3 years, through choice.  Not because of lack of offers, but because I haven't found a guy worth not being single for.  I live in London, I've been on a lot of dates - most bad!
My minimum dating age for the guy is 30.  Preferably 32-36


I actually think there is a bit of a masculinity crisis going on in the West - thanks to education and birth control, a lot of ladies simply do not need a man to provide for them, rendering the traditional male role somewhat obsolete.

Thanks to the combined efforts of the single men of London, I could write you a very amusing list of things not to do on a date  ;D

Oodar

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2011, 02:42:08 PM »
Yeah, I know China has an uneven proportion of males, and there was an article that mentioned my point, barely. It's not a problem yet. Marriage is not a dying trend in China. So at least monogamy is guaranteed.

The masclulinity crisis is very real. Like I said, young men are who I'm talking about. They went to school being told constantly they are worthless, have no role models, have to study curriculum aimed at girls, etc. They can't be who they are anymore. They banned dodgeball and tag when I was in school.

Now they compete with women for the same jobs that were male-dominated up until even the early 90's. You just took the words right out of my mouth. It's not women who are to blame, but it's not men either. They no longer live in a world that tolerates what their natural behavior is.

You are coming off as labeling all guys as scrubs. That is beside my point. There are a lot of scrubs who get laid plenty, and sophisticated men with good genes who don't. It's not just about alpha behavior, it's about approach and ease of talking to people. True, alpha males get laid more, but there is more to it when you factor in all the beta males.


Offline kyleen66

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2011, 02:46:05 PM »
I hate to say it but I honestly think that at the moment there are a lot more undateable men than there are undateable women!

Quoted for truth.

In these days, women do not have to settle for less just to be in a relationship and for security. A hundred years ago, even fifty years ago, career choices for women were bleak. Men had to be the providers. These days, a woman is perfectly capable of providing not only for themselves, but for any children they chose to have.

I've played the dating game (just went out with a very nice man for lunch), and there just isn't a lot worthwhile out there! And honestly, I'm not that picky! You go to dating sites and half the men either post pictures of themselves with their shirts off or just of their motorcycles. The men that have a tie on and a nice smile in their pictures, THOSE are the ones I contact or reply to. Also saying "I'll take you for long rides on my Harley....", or "just wants to cuddle in front of the TV..." Oh good God, maybe I'm too old but I can think half a dozen other things that I'd rather do with my time.

So yes, these days, I will say it is harder for men because we ladies aren't willing to settle.

On the flip side of that, I do know women that are entirely IMPOSSIBLE to please. I have one friend that "just wants to be married" and all the men she talks to can smell the desperation and run like hell. So I will agree, the whole dating dynamic has changed. From my point of view, I'm happy being single and until I meet a man that really is something special, I'm not likely to change it.

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 02:51:06 PM »
so if you agree it's occurring (and that it hasn't in the past), we're on the same page.
This is a SERIOUS problem in ski towns! Jackson Hole's ratio in winter is 13:1 male to female and summer 7:1. Most of those women are looking for "a normal guy" whatever that is? In a ski town that can be futile. 
Lots of sharing going on  :-\. "You didn't lose your girlfriend, you just lost your turn." is the motto.    ;)
They have no real interest in relating to women either - for them women are people you have sex with, not people you're friends with.
I have to say that I agreed with them up until 6yrs ago when I met my current girlfriend. I still don't believe men and women can have a platonic relationship.
For the record, I believe men should know how to cook, clean and sew. 
The only female "friends" I had that weren't sex partners were my close friends' wives. I had multiple sex partners so none of them could develop the illusion that there was a possibility of more. That way I didn't have to deal with unreasonable expectations of "the future" which really just amounts to $! I definitely felt like most of the women I met were looking for the B.B.B.A. = BIGGER, BETTER BANK ACCOUNT! That felt far more shallow than casual sex.

Offline C C G

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 03:13:02 PM »

Now they compete with women for the same jobs that were male-dominated up until even the early 90's. You just took the words right out of my mouth. It's not women who are to blame, but it's not men either. They no longer live in a world that tolerates what their natural behavior is.


Well with the pay gap at more than 10% for FULL TIME workers in the UK I'm not going to get too upset about that yet, sorry!  Yes, now they have to compete with women for the same jobs...and why should they not?  They still get paid more for doing *the exact same jobs*.

Women haven't lived in a world that tolerates what their natural behaviour is for centuries.
Yes, it's less of a man's world than it used to be.  I don't see this as a bad thing, although I understand why a lot of guys don't like not being quite so on top any more.   

Anyway, let's not get into a 'which gender has it worse' debate


In these days, women do not have to settle for less just to be in a relationship and for security. A hundred years ago, even fifty years ago, career choices for women were bleak. Men had to be the providers. These days, a woman is perfectly capable of providing not only for themselves, but for any children they chose to have.

I've played the dating game (just went out with a very nice man for lunch), and there just isn't a lot worthwhile out there! And honestly, I'm not that picky! You go to dating sites and half the men either post pictures of themselves with their shirts off or just of their motorcycles. The men that have a tie on and a nice smile in their pictures, THOSE are the ones I contact or reply to. Also saying "I'll take you for long rides on my Harley....", or "just wants to cuddle in front of the TV..." Oh good God, maybe I'm too old but I can think half a dozen other things that I'd rather do with my time.

So yes, these days, I will say it is harder for men because we ladies aren't willing to settle.

On the flip side of that, I do know women that are entirely IMPOSSIBLE to please. I have one friend that "just wants to be married" and all the men she talks to can smell the desperation and run like hell. So I will agree, the whole dating dynamic has changed. From my point of view, I'm happy being single and until I meet a man that really is something special, I'm not likely to change it.
this.  Same.  +1

I've just given up internet dating, I had such dreadful results with it! (some of the stories you wouldn't believe...)  Although I'm not convinced that I'm going to have any better luck at the 'Oxbridge singles evening' I have foolishly signed up for, but at least it will be amusingly bad, rather than just boringly bad... hahahahahaha ;D

Jackson Hole's ratio in winter is 13:1 male to female and summer 7:1.
Send them to London please.  I find the average American guy so much less easy to intimidate than the average brit!

I'm starting to think that it's all about speed dating.  I mean, I usually know if I want to see someone again within the first 10 minutes of a date...



Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 03:27:05 PM »
Jackson Hole's ratio in winter is 13:1 male to female and summer 7:1.
Send them to London please.  I find the average American guy so much less easy to intimidate than the average brit!
Somehow I don't think that the guys who actually live here are going to move to London? Personally I would sooner commit suicide than live in a city.
It's beautiful here! Maybe you want to come here? No "normal guys", just ski bums. The cowboys your age are married.
The men here are all man and super fit! Whenever I leave I realize we live in a bubble of supreme fitness and athleticism.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 04:00:51 PM »
Women are usually attracted to men who earn significantly more than enough money than they do.  If you are a career woman, you will only appreciate a man when your own womanly income is not needed... and you get a significant upgrade in your lifestyle.

We should set up a paleo dieters dating website.

Oodar

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 04:52:42 PM »
Anyway, let's not get into a 'which gender has it worse' debate

I didn't intend to. My only point is how involuntary celibacy is usually a problem of men. Women, men in Eastern cultures, gay men, etc can all suffer from it, but it's more common in the demographic I mentioned.

Just my observation, strictly opinion.

Your post makes my point easier to prove though. Not to sound cynical or offensive, but it's what I've heard a lot of young women say before.

My point is simply that sexual frustration is a condition that is not blamed when I believe it should be. I would be willing to argue that it is linked to criminal, self destructive behavior.


Offline Wlfdg

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Re: Involuntary celibacy - the underground epidemic
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 05:35:04 PM »
I would be willing to argue that it is linked to criminal, self destructive behavior.
My chronically single friends are drunks.  When they have a lady around they are 1-2 beers social.