Author Topic: Calcium  (Read 21220 times)

Lakeside

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2009, 03:58:24 PM »
Quote
I had acid reflex when I was a vegetarian.  After I was diagnosed the doctor handed me a sheet of paper and one of the suggestions was "a low fat diet."  I am thinking "what the f**k have I been doing for the past 10 years?"

Haha, very true!! So, if it is true that meat is acid forming, then is it bad that we are eating so much of it? Do you have any of the same symptoms now, that you used to have back then when you were diagnosed with acid reflux?


I haven't had the "cough' associated with acid reflux in many years.  The cough was caused by my esophagus being in such bad shape.  I did take a course of Prilosec 6 months and Aciphex for 6 months which helps heal the esophagus . It would reoccur at times but then a couple of months after starting paleo it was gone completely.  

Nearly all fruits and vegetables increase the alkaline load on the body. The increased alkaline load reduces urinary loss of calcium.  If you have The Paleo Diet by Cordain check pages 16 and 213.

Here is some interesting information:  Brown rice has a bigger acid load than beef, almost 40% more.
Rolled oats increase acid load about 20% more than beef.  Chicken is slightly higher than beef.
Hard cheeses are from 200% to 450% more acid forming than beef.  However, milk is only slightly acidic.



Very interesting question on where the cows get calcium....huh! Where do they?


Pasture fed cows get calcium from grazing on grass.



You know what, I made a startling discovery just now! I think that maybe my measurements of my greens are vastly underestimated. I actually took the time to put my greens in a measuring cup just now when making a salad, and it ended up being a LOT more than I would have thought. Also, I wonder too, when using the Cron-o-meter, about cooked greens. When they say "1 cup, cooked" does that mean it filled a 1 cup measuring cup pre-cooking, or after cooking? Because of course all those greens reduce down to hardly anything once they're cooked. So I've just been putting "1/2 cup cooked spinach" because I look at the finished, cooked product, and estimate that it looks like it would fill half of a 1 cup measuring cup. But prior to cooking, there was probably easily a full cup of it. Perhaps I've been getting 100% of my calcium this whole time and I didn't even know it!


An ounce/gram scale is more accurate than using cups.

Also the issue with Collard green affecting the thyroid gland has been reported for Broccoli and cabbage too, but it should be reduced by cooking.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 04:00:24 PM by Paleo Dude »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2009, 04:03:35 PM »
That's a good idea, I should look for a kitchen scale!

So about the acid load; fruits and veggies are the best then. Interesting about grains and very interesting about hard cheese! I will stay away from that then.

I'm glad to hear that about the thyroid issue being reduced with cooking. I heard that about the oxalates as well, that cooking helps break down the oxalates to some degree, I need more data though.  So it's probably not a good idea to eat too many oxalate-containing veggies in their raw form, I'd suspect?

Here's a very good list of high oxalate foods:

http://www.naturalhealthtechniques.com/ExamForms-MedicalIntuitive/list_of_high_oxalate_foods.htm
Quote
Oxalates are chemicals found in plant foods but not in most animal foods. Some people are more likely to form  kidney stones if they eat foods high in oxalates.

It seems to include all those "dark green" veggies that have high amounts of calcium: kale, collards, turnip greens, spinach, chard, etc. Another site listed almonds as well.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 04:09:38 PM by marika »

Offline Warren Dew

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2009, 04:10:28 PM »
Nearly all fruits and vegetables increase the alkaline load on the body. The increased alkaline load reduces urinary loss of calcium.  If you have The Paleo Diet by Cordain check pages 16 and 213.

Exactly.

Quote
Hard cheeses are from 200% to 450% more acid forming than beef.  However, milk is only slightly acidic.

Milk does somewhat promote calcium loss due to the diuretic effect of the extra protein, I believe.

Ultimately, the RDA for calcium should be viewed skeptically; remember it came from the same people who recommend basing one's diet on lots of grains.  To a large extent it can be seen as a result of the dairy lobby.

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2009, 04:14:18 PM »
The thing that makes me feel that I should at least get the RDA for calcium are the two studies I posted: the one that showed that Paleolithic humans likely got 1,600mg calcium daily, and the other study that showed that lactose-intolerant folks who were only getting about half of the RDA for calcium (from greens and canned fish) ALL had traumatic fractures by age 50.


marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2009, 04:17:01 PM »
This is an interesting site about oxalates in veggies causing kidney stones, and some precautions to try to avoid that:

http://www.foodandlife.com/foodk.htm

Quote
Some foods to consider eating more often:
-magnesium (dry milk in homemade yogurt increases the percent of magnesium content through food)
2 cups of calcium fortified orange juice a day provides:

     protective citrate,  a substitute for potassium citrate, a drug used to prevent kidney stones

     additional calcium which research shows actually help break up the kidney stones.
- 6-10  8oz. glasses of water a day
-Vitamin C - ONLY 500 mg a day.  Ascorbic acid can inhibit urinary pH (which lowers urinary citrate, a natural inhibitor of kidney stones).
-potassium foods, such as fruits and vegetables
-small amounts of meat (about the size of a deck of cards), and, if possible, the elimination of red meat from the diet   [???]
-standard 800-1,000 mg of calcium per day from foods, not supplements.  Low calcium may allow absorption of oxalates.
-Having overindulged, drink 2 full glasses of water.
-Get 10 mg of Vitamin B6 from food. One source of Vitamin B6: eat the tip of a banana, the dark part lodging between the banana and the skin.

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2009, 04:20:34 PM »
It looks like cooking does help with oxalates:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1416602
Quote
Measurement of oxalate content in vegetables commonly consumed in New Zealand shows that cooking reduces the oxalate content of the food by leaching losses into the cooking water.

And here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15826055

Quote
There was a high proportion of water-soluble oxalate in most of the tested raw vegetables. Boiling markedly reduced soluble oxalate content by 30-87% and was more effective than steaming (5-53%) and baking (used only for potatoes, no oxalate loss). An assessment of the oxalate content of cooking water used for boiling and steaming revealed an approximately 100% recovery of oxalate losses. The losses of insoluble oxalate during cooking varied greatly, ranging from 0 to 74%. Because soluble sources of oxalate appear to be better absorbed than insoluble sources, employing cooking methods that significantly reduce soluble oxalate may be an effective strategy for decreasing oxaluria in individuals predisposed to the development of kidney stones.

That was a little hard to understand but it sounds like boiling is best, and tossing the water?

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2009, 04:28:18 PM »
This was interesting:

http://www.naturallysavvy.com/natural-nutrition-101/natural-nutrition-faq/general-nutrition/1910-does-low-fat-milk-affect-calcium-absorption

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Calcium is one of the most difficult minerals to absorb (see the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, August 2000, 72:466-471). The recommended intake for calcium is based on the supposition that only about 30% of dietary calcium is absorbed. Minerals require transporting agents, such as amino acids (protein) or lipids (fats), to carry them into the small intestine for absorption. Skim milk provides little fat and little protein. One per cent milk is a better option.

So this makes me think that perhaps some fat on those greens is very important? And/or having it alongside a nice steak, as we normally would for Paleo?

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2009, 04:39:59 PM »
This study shows that calcium from milk was absorbed more readily than the calcium in watercress soup:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2819021
Quote
Recker et al. (1988), using 45Ca as an extrinsic label, found that Ca
absorption in post-menopausal women from milk products (whole milk, chocolate milk,
yoghurt, imitation milk, cheese) was similar to calcium carbonate, with means ranging from
22 to 27 YO from a 25 mg dose. The present experiment re-affirms the results of the original
balance studies on dairy and plant foods in that the Ca in skimmed milk was better
absorbed than that in watercress soup. The reason for this is unclear but may be
attributable to substances present in the watercress soup that bind Ca thereby rendering it
less absorbable, e.g. oxalate (Pingle & Ramasastri, 1978) and fibre (Kelsay et al. 1979), plus
the fact that certain components of milk have been implicated as enhancers of Ca
absorption, e.g. lactose (Charley & Saltman, 1963) and casein (Lee et al. 1979).

Offline Rollin

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2009, 04:59:26 PM »
Sometimes i juice veges could be another way to increase uptake, an acquired taste id say.

I will be making more of a conscious effort but me personally don't know what to believe wherever moneys involved. ???

Edit: Sorry for bad grammar ;D

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 05:05:14 PM by Rollin »
Stamp out weakness!!!

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2009, 06:02:32 PM »
Yes, it is hard to know what to believe...as you say, a lot of these studies are funded by folks with an agenda, too!

This study is especially troubling:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar03/osteo0303.htm
Quote
But two findings were unexpected. First, bone resorption—in which calcium is taken away from bones via the bloodstream—was the same for omnivore women as for vegan women.

"The current model predicts increased bone resorption for people who consume large amounts of animal protein, so it was somewhat surprising that bone resorption was the same for both groups of our volunteers," Van Loan notes.

Second, bone formation was significantly less in omnivore women than in vegan women. This happened even though the omnivore women had a higher calcium intake than did the vegan volunteers. (The volunteers did not differ in their intake of other nutrients that affect bone health, such as magnesium.)

Using the model as a basis, "one would not have predicted a significantly greater amount of bone formation for vegan volunteers than for omnivore volunteers," Van Loan adds.

The implication for people who eat high amounts of animal protein may be important: Specifically, over time, the net effect of a lower amount of bone formation would likely be a decrease in bone density.

So apparently, eating a lot of meat (like on a Paleo diet?) causes a net loss in bone density!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 03:44:19 AM by marika »

Offline Tarlach

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2009, 06:21:11 PM »
So apparently, eating a lot of meat (like on a Paleo diet?) causes a net loss in bone density!
Doubtful.
The "Seven Deadly Sins"

• Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . • Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc)
• Refined foods (salt/sugars etc ) . . • Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant)
• Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . . • Legumes (soy/beans/peas)
• Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc)

Offline paleo bushman

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2009, 08:15:20 PM »
Seems if I don't eat oxalates I don't eat vegetables.  I think I am just going to eat the ones that appeal to me. 

Maybe it is Vitamin D that causes Osteoporosis.  Seems almost as good as Paleo. 20,000 IU seems safe and will bump your D above 60 ng/ml.  No colds, no flu.
I want to make my own D light.  Seems they are just light bulbs.  Mainly for months October til March.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ-qekFoi-o

The slides

http://www.grassrootshealth.net/media/download/vit_d_baggerly_tv.pdf

The website.

http://www.grassrootshealth.net



« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 08:21:27 PM by paleo bushman »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2009, 03:52:58 AM »
That's cool, PaleoBushman! I like that idea better than taking cod liver oil!  :P

Well, Tarlach, I found another study backing you up - it shows that meat-eaters have better bone density than vegetarians and vegans:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090702/hl_afp/healthfooddietaustraliavietnam
Quote
A joint Australian-Vietnamese study of links between the bones and diet of more than 2,700 people found that vegetarians had bones five percent less dense than meat-eaters, said lead researcher Tuan Nguyen.

But then this study showed the opposite again:
www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/25/6/555.pdf
Quote
A study of the bone density of vegetarians
compared with age- and sex-matched omnivore
controls was carried out. A significant
difference was noted in vegetarians, which
suggests that they are less prone to osteoporosis
than omnivores
.

This very interesting book says there is "conflicting" info (yes, I'd say so!!), but says vegans may be more at risk for osteoporosis than lacto-vegetarians:
http://books.google.com/books?id=bOQHPDh56_UC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=vegan+incidence+osteoporosis&source=bl&ots=AkMazTw6Xv&sig=lqVZcdzmzFWzF5YJtXngxaIrCMQ&hl=en&ei=KRBbSt_lMoeaMfu_-EI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5
Quote
the two studies....suggest that a vegan diet may pose a higher risk of compromised bone status...

The next page though talks about meat:

Quote
A strong positive association was found between animal protein intake and incidence of hip fracture...The risk of hip fracture was not related to calcium or vitamin D intake, but was inversely associated with total protein intake....

It is proposed that animal protein, by virtue of its high content of sulfur amino acid, may induce bone loss...

A vast majority of these studies lend support to the inclusion of dairy products to maintain BMD and reduce osteoporotic fractures in women but not men....

Fruit and vegetable intake was positively associated with BMD in both men and women....

...Magnesium supplementation to osteoporotic women for 2 years resulted in slower bone loss and fewer fractures than in a control group. A diet high in potassium also tends to decrease rates of calcium excretion....In fact, it has been demonstrated that the highest base-forming potential is for fruits and vegetables and the highest acid-forming potential is for meat, cheese, and fish.

So maybe since Paleos eat more fruits & veggies rather than any grains, I wonder if that may help offset the higher animal protein acidification? I wonder if it would still help if I cut back on my animal proteins? But I actually just reached 100% RDA for protein yesterday, so it's probably not too much (unless I should switch to vegetable protein rather than animal protein?) Also it still sounds like adding in some milk would be helpful for women.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 05:21:14 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2009, 05:27:26 AM »
Here's one more paper on the effects of animal protein on bone loss, very interesting:

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:DGC7MANuKRYJ:www.armila.com/admin/uploaded_files/IMAGE53-A%2520High%2520Ratio%2520of%2520Dietary%2520Animal%2520to%2520Vegetable%2520Protein%2520Increases%2520the%2520Rate%2520of%2520Bone%2520Loss.pdf+vegetable+protein+acidification&hl=en&gl=us
Quote
...there is now evidence that due to the effects of a high intake of protein on the calcium
excretion and acid-base balance, the bone stability is detrimentally affected. Sulfur-containing
amino acids from protein are metabolized to sulfuric acid. An imbalance between acid and base-forming
constituents in food leads to a chronic net acidification, and without compensation a chronic metabolic
overacidification (latent acidosis) develops. Above all animal protein increases the renal net acid excretion
in contrast with vegetable protein...

Although latent acidosis leads on the one hand to a release of bases from
the bones to maintain the acid-base balance, the released minerals, above all calcium, are lost via the
urine, and in the long run this results in a decrease of the bone mineral content and bone mass. Additionally,
latent acidosis stimulates the activity of bone-resorbing osteoclasts and inhibits the activity of
bone-forming osteoblasts.....

Conclusion: Throughout the world, the per capita consumption of animal protein is associated with a
higher hip fracture risk in women over 50, and the consumption of vegetable foods with a lower risk.
However, the analysis of the bone density measurements showed no correlation with the intake ratio
from animal and vegetable protein, particularly not when the body weight and age were taken into account.
It can therefore be concluded that an adequate diet corresponding to a high total protein intake
and resulting higher body weight plays an important role with regard to an adequate bone density.
On the other hand, elderly women with a high proportion of animal protein showed a clearly more rapid
loss in bone density and a higher risk of hip fracture than women with a lower proportion. With advancing
age, the excess acidity caused by the high protein consumption has a particularly disadvantageous
effect on the bone stability because due to the declining kidney function, the capacity to excrete acids
steadily decreases. In addition, latent acidosis leads to an increased breakdown of muscle protein. Nitrogenous degradative products like, for example, glutamine serve as initial compounds for the synthesis of basic ammonia in the kidney cells. Like the bones, the muscular system becomes involved
as a base reserve for maintaining the acid-base balance with the consequence that with declining muscular strength in old age, the risk of hip fractures resulting from falls increases.

Taken together, the results confirm the hypothesis that an increased intake of protein of vegetable origin
and concomitant reduction of the consumption of animal protein reduces the nutrition-induced acidification; as a result of the protection of the body’s endogenous reserves this provides, both the bone loss as well as the risk of hip fracture in old age can be reduced. The basic minerals occurring mainly in vegetable foods which reduce protein-induced acidification are assumed to be responsible for this effect.

So it sounds like it probably is best, especially towards menopause and old age, to eat less animal protein and more vegetable protein.

The question is: do beans (the best source of vegetable protein, right?) also cause acidification?

Here's one site I found:
http://www.naturalstandard.com/index-abstract.asp?create-abstract=/monographs/alternativemodalities/generic-phdiet.asp
Quote
Advocates claim that consuming a diet high in acidic foods, such as animal protein, sugar, caffeine, and processed foods, may disrupt the pH of the bloodstream, and increase a person's likelihood of developing chronic or degenerative diseases. Foods that are acidic include sugar, caffeine, wheat, saturated fats, processed foods, carbonated beverages, peanuts, pasta and white rice.

And this one:
http://www.abundantlifeessentials.com/lasix.htm
Quote
ACIDIFYING
BEANS & LEGUMES
Black Beans
Chick Peas
Green Peas
Kidney Beans
Lentils
Pinto Beans
Red Beans
Soy Beans
Soy Milk
White Beans
Rice Milk
Almond Milk

So beans are acidifying too! Here's proteins they consider not acidifying:

Quote
ALKALIZING
PROTEIN
Almonds
Chestnuts
Millet
Tempeh (fermented)
Tofu (fermented)
Whey Protein Powder
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 05:33:05 AM by marika »

marika

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2009, 05:34:56 AM »
Here's one more site that shows non-acidifying proteins:

http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html
Quote
PROTEIN
Eggs
Whey Protein Powder
Cottage Cheese
Chicken Breast
Yogurt
Almonds
Chestnuts
Tofu (fermented)
Flax Seeds
Pumpkin Seeds
Tempeh (fermented)
Squash Seeds
Sunflower Seeds
Millet
Sprouted Seeds
Nuts

So eggs, almonds (but not peanuts, pecans, walnuts, brazil nuts or cashews), certain seeds (but not tahini), and chicken are good? And milk (of course not Paleo). Are chestnuts Paleo? I love roasted chestnuts!

I think I would get sick of eating just chicken and no other meat or fish. Tempeh is OK (not Paleo) but not hardly as good as steak!! :D  But I can imagine as I get closer to menopause that perhaps I might actually want lighter meals such as chicken, tofu and tempeh.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 09:27:24 AM by marika »

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Re: Calcium
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2009, 05:34:56 AM »