Author Topic: when to run + lift during fasting  (Read 6269 times)

Offline societygangrape

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when to run + lift during fasting
« on: April 19, 2010, 11:40:21 AM »
Looking to combine running + lifting + IF/paleo = lose fat + gain muscle.

I use nike+ coach for running(2-7mi), The Evolutionary Machine e-book for lifting and Daily burn for to monitor intake.

Im wondering how to time the run really. Should i run in the morining (eat something small or not?) then lift at night then eat?

or

should i run then lift then eat all in the evening? (this is the option im leaning toward)

or

should i lift then run then eat?

or anyother options you guys have, thanks

or

run eat lift eat?


Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 01:01:19 PM »
My personal opinion is against fasting and training.

No matter

You should lift first, then do cardio. Cardio first will kill your weight training. It's more important for general fitness to increase muscle mass.

FWIW - Distance running will catabolize muscle and subsequently increase fat storage. 


Offline PaleoRainy

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 01:10:16 PM »
Yes, definitely agree with Wlfdg, cardio will kill your lifting.
How about replacing old-school-cardio with sprints?

About *when* to eat, I think it's more a personal preference than a rule, I know people that will faint if they train at empty stomach. Me personally I'll vomit whatever I have eaten if I do, so I train at empty stomach, first thing in the morning, then get my coffee, go for my shower and chores and not eat for at least 30 mins after finishing my workout.

Offline societygangrape

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 02:16:34 PM »
Well im going to give it a shot anyway, ive heard way to many good results from this aproach

the plan is
pre WO 1 fruit
run (3-4x/week)
lift
post wo whey dex/malto/creatine
eat paleo 4hr window
fast 19hrs
repeat

just makes more sense to run after fasting maximize fat loss, then lift, then eat and rest/sleep
also i really think this pattern would actually mimic the hunting process
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 04:02:34 PM by societygangrape »

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2010, 02:24:18 PM »
Well im going to give it a shot anyway, ive heard way to many good results from this aproach

the plan is
pre WO 1 fruit
lift
post wo whey dex/malto/creatine
eat paleo 4hr window
run (3-4X/week)
post wo
whey dex/malto
fast 19hrs
repeat
You aren't training in a fasted state.

Your shake isn't remotely Paleo.


Offline societygangrape

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2010, 02:37:49 PM »

[/quote]You aren't training in a fasted state.

Your shake isn't remotely Paleo.
[/quote]

yeah i know, but ive been listening to alot of robb wolf and he doesnt seem too opposed to it, the whey or creatine, at least for short periods, not sure about the dex/malto.

Offline TWC760

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2010, 02:39:13 PM »

How about replacing old-school-cardio with sprints?


You should seriously consider this. I used to to a lot of cardio and I gained a lot more muscle when I started sprinting and weight lifting without the long-distance running. Also, you should get your feet on the most minimalist footwear possible, like nike free or vibram five fingers. This will prevent common problems like shin splits and naturally correct improper running technique.

Personally, I usually fast and then lift weights and do sprints outdoors. Or sometimes one or the other, I don't have a fixed routine. The only thing I don't understand is: if I am fasting my glycogen should be depleted ,and if my glycogen is depleted how am I able to sprint without any noticeable loss in speed. If I eat something beforehand though, my stomach feels like crap.

Offline societygangrape

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2010, 02:42:02 PM »



the program im using incorporates sprints, but only about 1/week, ive been running about 6 months now too
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 02:48:59 PM by societygangrape »

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 02:56:05 PM »
The only thing I don't understand is: if I am fasting my glycogen should be depleted ,and if my glycogen is depleted how am I able to sprint without any noticeable loss in speed. If I eat something beforehand though, my stomach feels like crap.
Gluconeogenesis - Your body is catabolizing muscle for glycogen. Based on training theory, if you aren't getting faster than in reality you are losing speed. So you are exercising and not training.

Offline Chris

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 03:08:59 PM »
I'm just gonna throw a fasting theory out here and see the response, but maybe you'll be able to take it into account with your own training.

Here is your typical Paleolithic band of people.

Let's say this is a band that is currently relying on hunting to sustain themselves; e.g. edible fruit/vegetables are scarce during this particular season. The best way to provide enough food for the people is to get a big kill by hunting.

Their previous kill has sustained the tribe for several days, stripped to the bone and the marrow taken out of the bone. However, they need to get themselves another animal to sustain themselves. All the food is gone: they are now in a state of "fasting" (though this isn't something they are forcing on themselves; they have no choice but to go without food).

So this band goes out on the hunt. It could take a few hours for the band to locate a herd of animals. The biggest challenge, however, is getting a kill. The band could be lucky and get a kill on their first attempt. More often than not, it's likely they'd have not managed to get a kill (taking into account that, while human's are obviously very intelligent beings, they lack the speed and strength other animals possess). It could take anywhere from a few hours to days, maybe longer, to finally get their prized kill. During this time, they are in their fasted state. Only after they get their kill, can they finally gorge themselves with food!

I guess the point I'm making is that Paleo humans probably spent a lot of time "fasting". They didn't have the availability of food we have today. Even with fruits/vegetables available, those would be minimal calories compared to the large amount available an animal. Perhaps over our 200,000 years of existence, man's body has adapted to perform better physically when food consumption was zero/low because that was when the body had to work hard to get food.

Personally, I felt more alert and physically capable when I used Ori Hofmekler fasting theory from the Warrior Diet (20 hours fasting, 4 hours over-eating). And I literally ate nothing until after I had done my weight training/physical activity for that day; I didn't notice any lack of power or strength from fasting.

I think there may be some evolutionary logic to fasting... but we can never be truly sure these days!

Offline societygangrape

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 03:26:31 PM »
The only thing I don't understand is: if I am fasting my glycogen should be depleted ,and if my glycogen is depleted how am I able to sprint without any noticeable loss in speed. If I eat something beforehand though, my stomach feels like crap.
Gluconeogenesis - Your body is catabolizing muscle for glycogen. Based on training theory, if you aren't getting faster than in reality you are losing speed. So you are exercising and not training.

I really think this is an antiquated idea, if you lifting heavy that is the only stimulus necessary to sustain, if not increase mass, as long as protien is needs are met.  If your idea were really true the starving hunter would have died long ago, for not having enough glycogen in thier body and underpreforming. 

In a fasted stated your body produces ketones and uses that for fuel.  Google ketogenic diets and bodybuilding, btw ketogenic diets are borderline if not totally paleo.

Offline societygangrape

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2010, 03:28:41 PM »
totally right on chris

Offline TWC760

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2010, 04:27:40 PM »
The only thing I don't understand is: if I am fasting my glycogen should be depleted ,and if my glycogen is depleted how am I able to sprint without any noticeable loss in speed. If I eat something beforehand though, my stomach feels like crap.
Gluconeogenesis - Your body is catabolizing muscle for glycogen. Based on training theory, if you aren't getting faster than in reality you are losing speed. So you are exercising and not training.

Right, but the thing is, I'm really not losing any muscle. If anything I'm gaining. I don't think my liver is catabolizing muscle if it can find the amino acids in my diet. And what about Intramuscular tryglicerides?


Offline Woopy

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 05:50:56 PM »
I don't think paleo people were that strong. On the contrary, I think they were skinnier and lankier than us and were not that muscular. My evidence is looking at modern day hunter gatherers, they don't look like elite athletes. Therefore, you can't train like a caveman if you want to look like (and feel like) and athlete.

Offline samjohn

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 06:29:25 PM »
I don't think paleo people were that strong. On the contrary, I think they were skinnier and lankier than us and were not that muscular. My evidence is looking at modern day hunter gatherers, they don't look like elite athletes. Therefore, you can't train like a caveman if you want to look like (and feel like) and athlete.

Some hunter gatherer tribes are/were very muscular. There have even been a few photos posted on this forum, old missionary photos and the like.