Author Topic: when to run + lift during fasting  (Read 6328 times)

Offline societygangrape

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 08:14:27 PM »
I don't think paleo people were that strong. On the contrary, I think they were skinnier and lankier than us and were not that muscular. My evidence is looking at modern day hunter gatherers, they don't look like elite athletes. Therefore, you can't train like a caveman if you want to look like (and feel like) and athlete.

Racially speaking, the cultures of northern Europe and England were and are very strong, look at any strong man competition.  Is it any coincidence that they were also cultures that built monoliths, huge stone circles and tossed tree trunks for fun? I dont think so.

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2010, 09:23:17 PM »
The only thing I don't understand is: if I am fasting my glycogen should be depleted ,and if my glycogen is depleted how am I able to sprint without any noticeable loss in speed. If I eat something beforehand though, my stomach feels like crap.
Gluconeogenesis - Your body is catabolizing muscle for glycogen. Based on training theory, if you aren't getting faster than in reality you are losing speed. So you are exercising and not training.

I really think this is an antiquated idea, if you lifting heavy that is the only stimulus necessary to sustain, if not increase mass, as long as protien is needs are met.  If your idea were really true the starving hunter would have died long ago, for not having enough glycogen in thier body and underpreforming. 

In a fasted stated your body produces ketones and uses that for fuel.  Google ketogenic diets and bodybuilding, btw ketogenic diets are borderline if not totally paleo.
Ketones do not fuel anaerobic effort. Glycogen does. There fore I refer back to gluconeogenesis.

Right, but the thing is, I'm really not losing any muscle. If anything I'm gaining. I don't think my liver is catabolizing muscle if it can find the amino acids in my diet. And what about Intramuscular tryglicerides?
Triglycerides are still not going to fuel anaerobic effort. If you aren't losing muscle them your creating glycogen from dietary protein. You are eating no carbs?


Offline TWC760

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2010, 12:27:35 AM »
The only thing I don't understand is: if I am fasting my glycogen should be depleted ,and if my glycogen is depleted how am I able to sprint without any noticeable loss in speed. If I eat something beforehand though, my stomach feels like crap.
Gluconeogenesis - Your body is catabolizing muscle for glycogen. Based on training theory, if you aren't getting faster than in reality you are losing speed. So you are exercising and not training.

I really think this is an antiquated idea, if you lifting heavy that is the only stimulus necessary to sustain, if not increase mass, as long as protien is needs are met.  If your idea were really true the starving hunter would have died long ago, for not having enough glycogen in thier body and underpreforming. 

In a fasted stated your body produces ketones and uses that for fuel.  Google ketogenic diets and bodybuilding, btw ketogenic diets are borderline if not totally paleo.
Ketones do not fuel anaerobic effort. Glycogen does. There fore I refer back to gluconeogenesis.

Right, but the thing is, I'm really not losing any muscle. If anything I'm gaining. I don't think my liver is catabolizing muscle if it can find the amino acids in my diet. And what about Intramuscular tryglicerides?
Triglycerides are still not going to fuel anaerobic effort. If you aren't losing muscle them your creating glycogen from dietary protein. You are eating no carbs?

Practically none. There is some glycogen/carbs in beef liver though and I eat large portions of beef liver every other night. So how much should I eat to refuel glycogen?

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2010, 08:18:48 AM »
Practically none. There is some glycogen/carbs in beef liver though and I eat large portions of beef liver every other night. So how much should I eat to refuel glycogen?
Sounds like you are doing o.k. without.

Charles Poliquin say's that "no on needs more than 30g. a day."

When I go below 100g. my explosiveness suffers greatly. AJMesa feels he needs even more than that. 

Offline mosin46

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 05:02:13 PM »
i have heard/read that carido at whatever level of fitness one is at works best for fat burning in early AM i.e. rather fasted. no glycogen stores present to speak of. thus energy must be obtained by body from fat stores. opinions/ideas?


Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2010, 06:34:32 PM »
That's a myth.

Offline mosin46

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 08:00:20 PM »
do you have a rational or rescource to support the "myth" assertion?

Offline Wlfdg

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 08:42:15 PM »
The myth is that you truly need to be in a fasted and depleted state. The body doesn't use much glycogen while sleeping. So there is the potential of glycogen stores being low but not truly depleted.

Pro- There is potential that you can mobilize more fatty acids with greater than moderate cardio output.
Con- Greater than moderate output in a fasted and depleted state is incredibly catabolic to lean tissue.

So for it to work as suggested you have to crank up the intensity of your morning cardio which is also going to catabolize muscle tissue.

It's not truly a myth but it's not as cut and dry as it sounds.

Now think about this.

Catabolizing muscle decreases the bodies ability to burn fat for energy. What is the point in decreasing fat stores? Increase definition. If you burn muscle and fat are you really increasing definition? NO You just have smaller whole on the road to skinnyfatness.

A more productive approach is to top off glycogen and amino acid stores, do a HIIT or Tabata session and reap the benefits of EPOC all day or longer. 

Offline mosin46

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Re: when to run + lift during fasting
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2010, 08:13:00 PM »
that makes sense