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Messages - ArcasAgathon

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re:the connective tissue, i guess that means going for the tougher cuts? I eat a lot of beef, usually t-bone and once per week some good fillet but I've started eating rump more often.

There's a strip of connective tissue along the bone in a T-bone that would do fine.

I also boil my chicken carcasses, and eat the cartilage from the joints. That gets you a lot of glucosamine and other connective tissue aminos.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Nightshades?
« on: March 28, 2011, 11:53:47 PM »
Richard Leaky found no proof that early man ate sprouts in any fashion!  Use your heads people.  Our ancesters roamed the land finding what they could, they didn't sit in their cave or hole in the ground making sprouts!

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

Diet and nutrition / Re: New to Paleo. Hope you all can help.
« on: March 22, 2011, 08:42:17 PM »
Welcome.  One thing to note about Cordain's books is that he has a strong emphasis on the leanness of meat which isn't justified by what we know of the actual human diet during the paleolithic.  Don't be afraid of animal fats!

Warren, again, I think if people were eating marrow, and liver, and brain, and kidney, and plenty of fish/seafood, and bugs, and everything ELSE pre-historic man ate, then the fats in the meat wouldn't be nearly as much as an issue as it is. But I still think "don't be afraid of animal fats" is unjustified given what's available to the average American (apologies to those who live elsewhere).

If I only ate wild game or pasture-fed meat, I would eat EVERYTHING, and render the subcutaneous fat down to fry my eggs in the next morning.

But I'm shopping the "manager's special" section of my local supermarket's meat section to find meat under $2/lb. as it is to keep me under a $10/day target for my diet. (I usually eat about 2-3 lbs. of animal per day on my 3200 cal/day diet).

Diet and nutrition / Re: confused about the high fat thing
« on: March 22, 2011, 08:33:28 PM »
Thanks for pointing out that interview!

To balance out my feed-lot meat, I...

1) Trim my meat of most visible fat, as Dr. Cordain recommends.
2) Eat Omega-3 enriched eggs.
3) Eat plenty of fish.
4) Supplement with fish oil on days that I don't eat fish.

I only use a LITTLE cooking oils in my foods, and when I do, it's generally olive.

I am also looking into finding sources of marrow and brains, which should improve my lipid profile.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Why is the caveman diet making me very tired?
« on: March 21, 2011, 08:30:31 AM »
Thanks for the info, Warren...

I'll keep it in mind. I guess, because Dr. Cordain's book is called "The Paleo Diet", I assumed that when people spoke of "Paleo Diet", they were referring to Dr. Cordain's work.

I greatly dislike the term "caveman diet", because the "caveman" is a complete fiction of bad anthropology. "Neanderthin" is a clever marketing term, but it also fails to satisfy me, because we aren't Neanderthals. "Primal Blueprint" utterly fails to appeal to me, because there's nothing primal about protein shakes and occasional dairy.

Before I discovered the Paleo Diet, I wrote of wanting to follow a "Foraging Diet". That, to me, better encapsulates the concept I wish to follow. Our pre-agricultural ancestors foraged for edible plant and animal life, frequently wandering from place to place.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Nightshades?
« on: March 21, 2011, 08:23:07 AM »
The way I see it, a part of "authentic paleo" is to eat a lot of variety of edible plants. The variety in the diet of our ancestors was enormous. If we limit ourselves to the cultivated vegetables of the Old World, we are eating a mere fraction of what our ancestors ate (even in the Old World). I would ask people...

...are coconuts "Old World"?
...are avocados "Old World"?
...are salmon "Old World" (particularly the varieties of the Pacific Northwest)?

I have no issues eating New World plants and animals, since I live in the New World.

But variety is Paleo. I think we need to remember that. Eat whatever is edible. I think even our Paleo ancestors probably ate a few grains (probably sprouted), legumes (also probably sprouted), and starchy tubers... but not in great amounts-- and certainly not as staples.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Recipe request- Mince Meat "pie"
« on: March 20, 2011, 08:23:10 PM »
We ended up going with lean pork tenderloin, blueberries, strawberries, orange slices, raisins, walnuts, and egg (as a binder). Coarsely chopped and formed into patties and baked. It was pretty good! At some point, I'd like to do it with lamb, and add some additional spices.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Primal Blueprint vs paleo?
« on: March 17, 2011, 11:16:46 PM »
From what I've seen, saturated fats are a mixed bag. Some are bad, some are good, and some are rather neutral. Problem is... if you can't get or afford grass-fed meats, the bad saturated fats are dominant in grain-fed livestock.
Do you have a source for this?  My impression was that the difference was primarily in the unsaturated fats - plus the raw amount of saturated fat, but not the distribution between the different types of saturated fat.

I'll have to look again, but I could have sworn that I saw that grain-fed beef was higher in palmitic and myristic acids, bad saturated fats... whereas grass-fed had higher levels of stearic acid, a good saturated fat. I'll see if I can find it.

For starters, Google turned up this one:

Diet and nutrition / Re: How much fat do we mean?
« on: March 17, 2011, 11:14:32 PM »
High fat does not exclude a good nutrient rich mix of veg. Interestingly, most people buy pretty much the same veg over and over, rather than a wide variety.

A question, as I think that 5 servings of fruit is pretty high, and is a lot of 'sugars'. Don't you just get into a calorie based, high carbohydrate WOE as a conventional diet? in my case, a lot of fruit will upset my stomach.

I don't like very low calorie as it's not sustainable although I have juice fasted before now. These days I'd just drink water. Why did you do it, if you don't mind me asking?

The VLCD phase of the HCG diet is not supposed to be sustainable. You're NEVER supposed to do it longer than 60 days, or 40 lbs. of weight loss, whichever comes first. I ended it after 30 days and 30 lbs of weight loss.

It's not harmful to do over a short span, especially since the calories you ARE eating are quite a bit more nutritious than the SAD, but you do lose weight fast.

It helped me kick start a new phase of my metabolism. I was insulin resistant before. Now I'm not. My triglycerides were high. Now they're not. My BP was never BAD, but that is even down some (I'm looking at 110/65 BP with 72 heart rate).

The segue into Paleo was easy. I just started eating much of what I was having before during those 30 days, but much more quantities of it. I am still deficient on my calories, though I can't imagine eating any more than I do. I'm still losing weight, but slower. That's fine with me!

Diet and nutrition / Re: Primal Blueprint vs paleo?
« on: March 17, 2011, 10:12:43 PM »
Depends on who's version of paleo.  Cordain's version is lower fat and lean meats.  PB is higher fat, lower carb, allows dairy for those tolerate it and occasional dark chocolate.  Mark Sisson doesn't buy the cholesterol theory or believe saturated fats are harmful.  Cordain has gone from believing saturated fats are deadly poison to an 'on the fence' position.

From what I've seen, saturated fats are a mixed bag. Some are bad, some are good, and some are rather neutral. Problem is... if you can't get or afford grass-fed meats, the bad saturated fats are dominant in grain-fed livestock.  I would eat the fatty cuts from grass-fed meat if I could afford $8-$11/lb for it (in the amounts I need to eat... perhaps 2 lbs/day, but I can't.

FYI: Here's a local distributor of grass fed beef near me:

Those are fairly reasonable prices, but still out of my league. I shop the "manager's special" bin at my local supermarket for any meat that's only got a day left on its "sell-by" date. Marked down pretty nicely, usually.

Diet and nutrition / Recipe request- Mince Meat "pie"
« on: March 16, 2011, 09:47:56 PM »
It's a special holiday for my religion on Sunday, and it's traditional to have a special breakfast. Breakfast on Paleo can be a little uninspiring, IMO, given our American penchant for endless carbs (pancakes, bagels, french toast, etc...) or cured meats (bacon, ham, etc...) for breakfast. I don't want to do eggs, because we do enough of those for regular breakfast.

I want to do something special.

I'm thinking it might be nice to do a variation on mince meat pie. Without a crust, it would be more of a mince meat bake. I was considering the following ingredients:
  • ground lamb
  • nuts: chopped walnuts and pecans
  • fruits: chopped apple, currants (if I can find them), raisins
  • spices: cinnamon, clove, nutmeg

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks that might work?

Any other ideas?

Diet and nutrition / Re: Why is the caveman diet making me very tired?
« on: March 15, 2011, 09:00:42 PM »
And from the FAQ on

When switching to The Paleo Diet after being on an ultra-low-carb diet, is it possible to gain temporary weight from eating the "unlimited" fruit allowed on your plan?
Let me take a roundabout way of answering this question first by explaining why almost all of the weight we gain comes from either dietary fat or dietary carbohydrate.

As I pointed out in Chapter 4 of The Paleo Diet, it is physiologically impossible to gain weight when lean protein is the only food consumed because of the body's limited ability to break down protein and excrete the by-product of protein metabolism (urea). This limit is called the physiological protein ceiling and varies between 30-40% of the normal caloric intake in most people, assuming they are consuming their usual (eucaloric) energy intake. Continued consumption of lean protein at or above the physiological protein ceiling without added fat or carbohydrate will elicit symptoms of so-called "rabbit starvation," a malady eliciting lethargy, diarrhea, weight loss, electrolyte imbalances, and eventual death. Hence, all people will lose body weight if limited to consumption of lean protein.

Lean protein has been shown repeatedly to be the most satiating of all three macronutrients (protein, fat, and carbohydrate). Numerous clinical trials have shown that people eat fewer calories during a high-protein meal compared to high-fat or carbohydrate meals, and they eat fewer calories at the meal immediately following a high-protein meal. Finally, lean protein has two to three times the thermic effect of either carbohydrate or fat -- meaning that it elevates metabolism ~5-10% higher than when either carbohydrate or fat are consumed.

Both carbohydrates and fats can be consumed (theoretically) in quantities greater than the daily energy expended because there is no physiological limit or ceiling that occurs when these substrates are metabolized. Excess dietary carbohydrate or excess fat do not make us acutely ill like excess protein. Hence, these excess calories are simply stored as body fat. Over the long haul, when more energy is consumed than energy expended, we gain weight.

Carbohydrates that cause us to gain weight are typically carbohydrates with a high glycemic load. Although most of you have probably heard of the glycemic index (the ability of a food to acutely raise the blood sugar), many are unfamiliar with the glycemic load, which is simply the glycemic index of a food multiplied by the carbohydrate content in a given amount of the food. The glycemic load of a food is more closely related to the net insulin response over a 24-hr period than is the simple glycemic index. Consequently, it is the glycemic load that may predispose us to obesity and chronic disease.

Although watermelon has a high glycemic index (72) similar to white bread (70), it has a glycemic load (per 100 grams of watermelon) that is only 5.2 compared to a glycemic load in white bread of 34.7. The International Table of Glycemic Indices lists the glycemic index of 11 fruits. The glycemic loads (per 100 grams of food) of these 11 fruits are as follows: bananas 12.1, pineapple 8.2, grapes 7.7, kiwi fruit 7.4, apple 6.0, pear 5.4, watermelon 5.2, orange 5.1, cherries 3.7, peach 3.1, grapefruit 1.9. Consequently one would have to eat 6.7 times as much watermelon as white bread to achieve an equivalent glycemic load. Let's say you ate 4 slices of white bread (or 100 grams, ~ 1/4 lb). In order to get an equivalent glycemic load, you would have to eat almost 1.5 lbs of watermelon or 4 lbs of grapefruit.

One of the body's mechanisms used to determine when to stop eating is stomach volume or fullness. Most people would stop eating watermelon after about 3.0 lbs (435 kcal) or say even 6.0 lbs (870 kcal) because their stomach volumes simply could not physically take much more food. Hence, under normal eating conditions, it is difficult or impossible for most people to overeat on fruits alone.

However, this being said there are some important exceptions. Dried fruits are not only concentrated calorie sources, they also represent high glycemic loads and have a high potential to cause weight gain, particularly when eaten in unlimited quantities. In addition, high-fat foods such as nuts, seeds, or fatty meats, if consumed in excessive quantity along with fruits, can also promote weight gain.

When I say unlimited quantities, perhaps I should say, within normal eating limits, rather than complete gluttony. If you are unsure of "normal limits" and do not know if you are hungry, then eat a piece of lean turkey breast. If you are still hungry, eat more lean protein, particularly if weight loss is a major objective.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Why is the caveman diet making me very tired?
« on: March 15, 2011, 08:57:25 PM »
If he was okay with all this high-fat version of Paleo, then why is Dr. Cordain's organization still touting lean meat?

They'll probably argue even less when they get their chops around some grass-fed tallow!

I can't afford it. Many can't. I'm looking for organ meats from local butchers, though.

Coconut oil tastes bad.
People need to trust their taste buds.
And stop flavoring their food.

Not that I'm big on coconut oil, but I don't think it tastes bad at all.

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