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Messages - paleophil

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You and your children being sensitive to multiple foods increases difficulty and even Paleo shakes are not optimal (whole foods are generally preferable), but here are some potential Paleo/Primal shake and smoothie ingredients (I tried to leave out ones you've said that you or your children are sensitive to):

raw coconut water from a coconut or Harmless Harvest 100% raw & organic coconut water (expensive)
fresh kale or spinach (preferably young), spring greens
berries (fresh or frozen)
1/2 - 1 super-ripe banana
1 cup chopped, peeled apples (such as Granny Smith)
1/4 cup chopped organic carrot or parsnip
1/4 cup nuts (preferably raw soaked, such as Brazil nuts or hazelnuts)
raw fermented honey (Really Raw Honey sells it)
Great Lakes kosher gelatin powder
2 teaspoons unsweetened cocoa powder
mint leaves
grass-fed raw whey protein powder
sea salt
water kefir
ice or water

Paleo shake and smoothie ingredients/recipe links:

I love fruit, yet it sounds like you eat more fruit than I do! How can it be that you dislike fruit if you don't mind eating fruit every day? ???
no-no I *could* eat a granny smith apple a day if I had to, ...
Without any negative symptoms? If so, that's still better than me, though my tolerance for them seems to have improved some, based on the one or two times I've tried one in the last couple years. I much prefer dolgo apples, gourmet heirloom crabapples (there are "eating" varieties of crabapples, believe it or not), Macoun, and even certain Empire apples, so I don't generally bother with granny smith any more and I don't eat a lot of apples anyway, as it's not one of my better foods.

I do eat black grapes occasionally, not the others. I dislike citrus fruits, don't know why I like granny smith apples. I hate most other apples, it is indeed weird.
Not that weird, most supermarket apples are crappy.

So I can have green peas that I like? I like the ones you can eat raw.
People will tell you to avoid or eat this or that, but no one else can really possibly know what you can handle--only you, via testing. The Paleo template is a starting point, but it's just a template, not an absolute answer for everyone. Besides, no two people seem to agree on what should be included in the default template. The greatest agreement on what to avoid is gluten grains, added sugars and seed/bean oils (like corn and soy oil, aka "vegetable oil," and margarine)--and most highly processed foods contain one or more of these. However, it may be a good idea to start out with a stricter version of Paleo at first, such as the "autoimmune protocol" that Rob Wolff recommends, then see what you can add to that.

I'm one week into it and probably 80% paleo. I'm still eating rice and chickpeas and have had some vegan meal replacement shakes that are made of rice and pea powder.
To me, of those foods, the replacement shakes and pea powder are the most suspect. If your great grandmother wouldn't have eaten it, it's probably best to try going without it for a while, then some weeks or months later if you want to try them again, you can, but highly processed foods tend to be suboptimal. Nearly everyone recognizes that fresh peas are superior to powder.

Believe it or not, most longtime "Paleos" who eat rice recommend white rice over brown rice. The brown rice hull contains most of the antinutrients and the general consensus is that that's the main cause of worse problems with brown rice. White rice seems to be OK for a lot of folks, and some--such as Paul Jaminet--report that they do better when they include it in their "Paleo" diet, though I find I need to restrict it to occasional small amounts.

I still feel quite a bit different. Completely cut out any kind of grain except the rice. I've lost a few pounds and feel less bloated.

I'm keeping a food journal as well.
That is a good practice, especially early on until you get a good sense of what your problem foods are.

[Note: I remembered that yacon are sunflower-family rhizomes, rather than legume tubers. I corrected my earlier post above where I had listed yacon as a legume tuber.]

I really dislike fruit  I always have. I don't mind eating a granny smith apple a day, but fruit always makes me feel like I've eaten a bag of skittles and are too sweet for me. I do like to put berries in things though.
I love fruit, yet it sounds like you eat more fruit than I do! How can it be that you dislike fruit if you don't mind eating fruit every day? ???

I don't like granny smith apples myself and they upset my stomach if I eat more than a small amount, but I do like dolgo apples and some other heirloom varieties, which I find to be much tastier and easier for me to digest. If you can digest granny smith apples, then in that way you're tolerating fruit better than me. My favorite berries are wild Maine blueberries and organic blackberries. I find them quite tasty on their own, and not overly sweet.

Have you tried well-ripened cherimoya fruit, fresh black mission figs in season or black grapes? I find them to also be quite tasty. Passion fruit, lemons, limes, kumquats and wild grapes are more sour than sweet. Coconut and avocadoes are more fatty than sweet, and most people accept them as "Paleo."

Peas fresh off the bush are sweet and edible raw, especially sugar-snap peas, and thus "Paleo" by Ray Audette's definition of obtainable and edible with nothing but a sharp stick. Other legumes that are edible raw include legume fruits like tarmarind, legume "nuts" like African bambara groundnuts and South American jungle peanuts (they are related to the American peanut, but less toxic), and legume tubers like jicama.

Some people consider sweet potatoes and other tubers to be "Paleo," such as Paul Jaminet, Chris Kresser, Dr. Kurt Harris, and Richard Nikoley. Even Loren Cordain OK'd sweet potatoes for those who are active and not overweight. I used to have a problem with nightshades myself, but my immune system apparently has calmed down quite a bit and I can now eat small amounts of some nightshades, such as common varieties of potatoes.

So there may be a lot more "Paleo" options than you think. It all depends on what actually works for you in the short and long runs. Only you can test that to figure it out.

You don't have to do Paleo 100% or consider yourself a failure and give it up entirely. Do what you can manage. Just avoiding gluten grains, added sugars and seed/bean oils (such as corn, soy and canola oils and margarines) can provide major benefits. Bran is generally from wheat, and is actually the most toxic part of wheat. I would avoid that like the plague. The egg replacer does appear to be a highly processed, unhealthful product. You may find that after months or years of eating relatively Paleo that you can eat eggs again without problems.

Miscellaneous / Re: Meal prep. Is is wearing you out???
« on: February 07, 2013, 05:13:15 PM »
Eating raw or mostly-raw Paleo eliminates most of the prep time and is the fastest and easiest way of eating. Crockpot is the 2nd easiest--set it and forget it.

Food Journals / Re: Bone broth anyone?
« on: December 26, 2012, 03:21:02 PM »
I eat bone broths, mostly made from beef marrow bones and fish bones and my dental health has improved since doing so. I also add some kosher gelatin now and then.

Generally, I don't have enough bones to make bone broth :(  I've got a low calorific intake, live alone, eat a lot of fish, and eat away from home a lot, which means I rarely have enough bones.
Fish bones and heads make excellent broth.

Miscellaneous / Re: Breakouts
« on: December 26, 2012, 03:17:49 PM »
You mentioned five carb-containing foods that can give me breakouts if I eat too much: fruit, sweet potato, kombucha (especially more sugary varieties), paleo cookies, paleo banana bread. The last two are especially problematic for me. Zinc helps counter the zit-producing effect of carby foods and since my zinc levels have increased in recent years, my tolerance for carbs seems to have improved some and it takes more carbs to give me zits. YMMV.

Miscellaneous / Re: Toastmasters speech about paleo diet
« on: November 20, 2012, 04:11:47 PM »
Simple as that, when you wake up tomorrow: skip your breakfast.
I would be interested in any evidence you have for this. I have seen claims of this, but so far no evidence. Thanks!

Diet and nutrition / Re: Paleo and weight loss
« on: November 12, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »
Good catch, Warren. I didn't notice that sweet potato was in most of the menus. I was doing miserably on "Paleo" myself when I was eating lots of sweet potatoes, squash, and nightshades like white potatoes, green and red peppers and tomatoes. Those foods do pose problems for me and some other folks, despite more and more people claiming that they're superb Paleo foods. I was skeptical that these foods could be a problem for me, even after my sister suggested they might be, but when I tried cutting them out, it became apparent within a few weeks that I fared much better without them. I still occasionally eat some potato or sweet potato when eating out or at someone else's house, but I don't eat them as staple foods any more.

ffyb, Prof. Loren Cordain at first went pretty easy on these foods, only warning against tubers for those trying to lose weight and even recommending them for athletes, but he increased his warnings after studying nightshades. Since Paul Jaminet started calling sweet potatoes, potatoes, yams and rice "safe starches," they have been somewhat rehabilitated, but they still cause me and other people problems, so it might be worth trying cutting them out for a time.

On the other hand, some people have reported that Paleo only worked for them when they added lots of so-called "safe starches" back into their diet, especially if they were exercising a lot, like you apparently are, so your mileage may vary.

I spotted some more potential culprits: miso soup is not widely regarded as "Paleo" and contains soy lectins that could promote autoimmune dysfunction and other issues (and it does give me negative reactions), and if there's soy, wheat or sugar in your teriyaki sauce, that's another potential issue; plus, almond butter and turkey are also relatively high in omega 6 and almond butter is a calorically-dense processed food that's relatively high in brain reward compared to most Paleo foods.

Your diet reminds me of what a lot of folks were eating early in the Paleo movement before they discovered that it did not generally work well to avoid saturated fats (you are eating some SFA-rich butter, but even that has been a problem for some and is technically not "Paleo") and eat lots of lean meats, omega 6 fats, tubers and nightshades. The 1st edition of Dr. Cordain's book contributed to people going in that direction, but he has since become less negative about saturated fats and less positive about nightshades.

Diet and nutrition / Re: Paleo and weight loss
« on: November 12, 2012, 04:23:02 AM »
The people who report results like those typically are doing Paleo consistently rather than on and off. Doesn't look like you're eating too much fat. Diet looks pretty good, though it looks like it might be a bit low in healthy saturated fat (100% grass-fed beef fat) and high in omega 6 fat (grain-fed chicken and pork). Some omega 6 is OK, but your diet could be imbalanced. Running the numbers at might give you the overall picture. Cutting out the cheese might help, don't know until you try. Another option would be to try replacing the cheese with more butter (preferably pastured), which would give you more saturated fat.

You're doing Crossfit at the same time, so it's also possible that you're gaining muscle mass. A better measure than body weight is waist size and how you're fitting into your clothes (ie, are they becoming looser in the areas of fat deposition and/or tighter in the areas of muscle). Body fat % is also a superior measure to body weight, though it's more difficult to measure.

If you're adventurous, another option is to eat more of your foods raw or low-slow-heated (such as with a crockpot), especially fatty animal foods. I've noticed that raw eaters tend to get slimmer than those who cook much of their food.

Introductions / Re: From Raw Vegan to Animal Food Advocate
« on: November 05, 2012, 07:35:54 PM »
I have found that rawness is more important with animal foods than plant foods--quite the contrary of what we're taught by the powers that be. Many folks at the Raw Paleo Food forum report the same thing.

Food Journals / Re: Paleo/gut diet plan for my acne/ acid reflux
« on: November 05, 2012, 06:59:48 PM »
Here's what I would favor, FWIW:

> pre-cooked turkey breast
I prefer brown poultry meat, which is nicely fattier and thus juicier, albeit usually high in omega-6 fatty acids, though I try to find the highest-quality sources and rarely eat poultry anyway (and when I do, it tends to be quality duck, which is fattier).

> Sauerkraut...
I don't know about your saurkraut, but my sauerkraut is RAW fermented.

> pot of coffee: I will not give this up, because it really helps me stay awake due to low carbs and it taste great.
A whole pot of coffee would make me WAY too jittery, even the best coffee.

> 2 sweet potatoes (medium size): I love sweet potatoes, there is a major debate I saw on a few websites on whether they are paleo, but they are a great source of vitamin A.

For you, maybe, but not for me. In my case I would go with raw carrots, parsnips, radishes and more sauerkraut, because I don't fare well on sweet potatoes, despite all the hoopla around them, at least not yet.

> 2 Eggs cooked with mushrooms, and diced onions: I eat this for breakfeast every morning.
I eat my eggs raw most of the time. I digest them much better that way. I eat my mushrooms raw dried. Seems to work best for me and tastes way better to me than cooked mushrooms.

> full stock of kale cooked in virgin olive oil with six cloves of garlic: This taste amazing and always gives me a clear mind.
I go with raw mesclun myself, but if cooked kale works for you, great.

> 1 serving of probiotic full fat yogurt: This is Romanian yogurt that is all organic, and was suggested on the gut diet website.
Sounds pretty good. I fare best with full fat sheep's yogurt, though I don't notice significant benefits from any dairy products.

> 1 small serving of quinoa once in awhile: I have been told this is a good source of potassium, but I may chunk it because it seems to be a strong enemy of the paleo community. Need advice on this one.

I would junk quinoa myself.

> 1 serving of almonds
I go with raw Brazil nuts, but not many.

> 1 apple with some other frozen organic fruit
My best apples seem to be a crabapple variety from Kazakhstan called Dolgo. I rarely bother with others. Most apples don't interest me much compared to wild Maine blueberries, organic blackberries, fresh black mission figs, and very-ripe cherimoyas and bananas.

> Wheatgrass supplement in water
I avoid this stuff.

To those foods I would add:

LOTS of animal fats (100% pasture-fed suet/tallow, pork leaf/lard, bone marrow, etc.)--your diet is WAY too low fat for me
Organs (beef and chicken livers and hearts)
Raw free-range, pastured and/or fertilized local eggs
Bone/skin/cartilage broths
100% grassfed ground beef
Raw wild fatty fish (aka sashimi)
Raw fermented honey
Raw fermented cod liver oil
Kelp (raw dried)


The consensus view seems to be that vitamin D helps guttate psoriasis, and also vitamin A:

Psoriasis - guttate
"Mild cases of guttate psoriasis are usually treated at home. Your doctor may recommend any of the following:
... Prescription medicines containing vitamin D or vitamin A (retinoids)"

Regarding guttate psoriasis: "[M]ake sure to get your vit-d up in the 60 range. That may require pretty agressive suplementation (10K IU/day for a week or two, 5K thereafter). Kick that up to 100% for 30 day. Be amazed." - Robb Wolf,

Vitamin D supplements helped Michelle
Vitamin-D-generating sunlight helped MimsySeoul

Simon eliminated standard psoriasis by eliminating milk, nightshades, fruit and soy

Sarfraz Zaidi, MD says in his Power of Vitamin D book that low levels of vitamin D can cause psoriasis.


The raw fermented cod liver oil that Chris Kresser recommends is high in both vitamins A and D. Wild fatty fish like salmon, tuna, herring, sardines and mackerel also contain decent amounts of vitamin D (, and sunlight is another source of vitamin D, of course. Liver, such as 100% grassfed beef liver is another rich source of vitamin A.

I didn't notice any mention of added animal fats in your diet like suet/tallow, bone marrow, pork leaf/lard, back fat, butter, butter oil, .... They can help with dry skin and pastured versions can also contain some vitamins A and D, as well as E and K2, which can also help the skin. Animal fats also help with absorbing vitamins A, D, E and K2, because they are fat-soluble vitamins.

Foods that contain gelatin and connective tissues, such as skin, joints and bones (from chicken, ox-tail, bone-in fish, ...) low-slow-cooked in a crockpot and Great Lakes gelatin can also be beneficial for the skin.

You did mention bacon (which invariably contains more omega 6 fat than omega 3 and many folks fry it to a crisp, oxidizing and deteriorating the heat-sensitive PUFAs, though the potential harm from that is more theoretical than observed), salmon and eggs, but it's sounding like you may not be getting enough fat soluble vitamins from those foods for your needs. Poor absorption is a potential factor.

If you decide to eat lots of eggs again, you might try seeking out the best source you can from a local farm. Some healthfood markets and farmers markets sell local eggs.

Introductions / Re: Considering the Paleo diet
« on: October 24, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »
Welcome Jenny, This particular forum has a low-carb, high-fat and anti-dairy orientation (not 100%, though), which happens to mostly match what I eat (I do consume some dairy and find at least one carby food to be beneficial and eat some others too that I tolerate fairly well), but there are a wide variety of opinions on macronutrient ratios within the broader Paleo/ancestral community and lots of arguments, often vicious, about what I call the "macronutrient wars." I recommend checking out Dr. Kurt Harris' blog for his views on macronutrients and about better indicators of heart health than standard blood lipid panels. I'll add that I've benefited from a mostly raw version of Paleo/Primal/ancestral diet.

When it comes to diet and health in general, I find that the standard advice is often nearly opposite of the actual case. For example, I used to be somewhat skeptical of rawness, but had consumed raw eggs in my youth and didn't die, so I knew that the standard dire warnings about it were largely hysterics, and I am generally open-minded about a lot of things that disgust or terrify others, so I gave it a shot and benefitted as a result. Ironically, when it comes to rawness, I find that animal foods are basically the most important ones to eat raw (or at least low-cooked) and fats are most important of all to not overheat. So GoodSamaritan is spot on re: that.

I generally eat 60-80% of my calories as fats (mostly raw animal fats), because I find I do best that way, and it's also cheaper than buying lots of lean meats, but I think there are carby foods that are probably relatively healthy as well as unhealthy ones and one of my most beneficial foods has been small amounts of raw fermented honey--again, nearly the opposite of what you'll hear from most people in nearly all corners who condemn all "sugars" as evil poison.

Re: the alleged 30% or 35% protein max (allegedly due to certain death from "rabbit starvation" for significantly exceeding that ratio for more than a few weeks or so), it turns out that there is evidence that there have been traditional coastal Inuit groups that consumed over 40% of calories as protein for years and survived, though that's not necessarily optimal:
Table 10.1 Published Macronutrient Ratios for Traditional Coastal Inuit Diets*

Author Protein Fat Carbohydrate
Krogh & Krogh, 1915  48.3% 46.5% 5.4%
Hoygaard, 1941  43% 54% 3%
Heller & Scott 1962  56% 43% 1%
Rabinowitch and Smith, 1936  44.7 % 48.7 % 6.5 %

* Compiled from  Dr. D.C. Foote's 1967 socio-economic report, "The East Coast of Baffin Island, N.W.T., an area economic survey," unpublished multilith.   

Source: Vitamin C in the Inuit diet: past and present
Karen Fediuk
School of Dietetics and Human Nutrition
McGill University, Montreal
July 2000
A thesis submitted to the The Faculty of Graduate Studies and Research in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Science
However, the Inuit eat certain foods, like certain raw organs, that most modernized folk do not each much of, so only veteran carnivores who know what they're doing tend to succeed for any length of time with high-protein diets and there are theoretical concerns about long-term problems like accelerated aging. I know of at least one Paleo-type dieter who has been consuming over 40% calories as protein for months with only reported benefits so far.

When it comes to important matters that you have time to delve into--question everything. Investigate and test things yourself.

Introductions / Re: Hi Everyone, were a family new to Paleo.
« on: October 21, 2012, 02:41:45 AM »
A 2.5 million year fad.

Introductions / Re: Hi Everyone, were a family new to Paleo.
« on: October 16, 2012, 08:52:59 PM »
i agree with the frosting... ive always picked it off of cake! I really only wanted to be able to make cakes etc as I wanted something that would be nice for a treat, or if i really feel the need for something naughty- though honestly the idea of cakes makes me feel ill at the mo- im sure its because ive gotten it into my head i need to use almond to get them!
If they don't make you ill and you only make them occasionally, it'll probably work out all right for you. I would just be aware that one of the more common mistakes that Paleo diet newcomers make is to "smoke candy cigarettes" by making lots of "Paleo" versions of their favorite junk foods, like lots of Paleo pizzas, Paleo pancakes, baked goodies and sweet treats. Then they complain that "Paleo" doesn't work that well in the longer run and maybe even start attacking Paleo dieters as idiots. LOL

do you think its because of the amount of sugar thats pumped into all of the above? if you get sugar highs from food- then you could possibly see certain foods as giving happiness to a child? These exact beliefs are the ones of my family.
Excellent point. Drug addicts and alcoholics tend to think its great stuff early on and to want company. One thing I dislike about crowds of early twenties youths is that they tend to go on and on about the wonders of various mixed drinks and beers. When the early euphoria has warn off and their beer bellies start kicking in during their 30's or 40's, they tend to calm down about it and maybe even start regretting their habit (though some alcoholic beverages are probably less harmful than commercial beer and mixed drinks, based on my scientific experiments ;D and research).

Courtney eats a little more of what we ask each day, which i guess is because thats all we have, its really amazing to see how eating better has made our whole family eat better.
Sounds great, congrats. If it works for you and your family, you could pay it forward, sharing the wealth with others who are interested (and beware that a lot of people are wary of dietary evangelists).

Though the dreaded weekend that Courtney is at her biological fathers house is this weekend- where mcdonalds is on the menu. im hoping as she grows older she will learn to say no, or decide she doesnt like the taste of foods we dont have as part of our family diet.
If you notice that she feels "off" or ill after being at her father's house, perhaps you might subtly and gently help her to be aware of this, as in:

Her: "I'm not feeling well," or "I feel too sick/tired to do ___. Mom."
You: "Yes, you don't look well. What do you think it might be?"

And if it happens two or three times in a row, you might point it out: "I noticed that you've been feeling off each time you come home from your father's. Any idea why that might be?"

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